Topics: Migration policy E&OE.......................
PATRICIA KARVELAS: I'm going to bring now my panel in. They're both here. Josh Burns is a Labor MP and a special envoy for social housing and homelessness. Dave Sharma is a Liberal senator. Welcome to both of you.
JOSH BURNS: PK, good to join you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let's start on migration. Tomorrow, Tony Burke will finally announce your migration— new migration policy. It seems that there's a real crackdown on families, particularly of international students. How are we going to be a competitive market for international students to choose Australia if we make it hard for people to come here?
JOSH BURNS: I think there's a few things to say. First of all, Dave and I are the products of migrants, and I'm the product also of a refugee, and I don't want to in any way, shape, or form think that this debate is about demonising migrants. I know that the way that migration can be weaponised in a political debate is very destructive. We are a migrant country, except for our first Australians, and I think that's something that we should be celebrating. And we should also be recognising the contribution that migrants have in Australia. And I remember, PK, after COVID, I had businesses, hospitality businesses, hotels, aged care services saying, open up the gates, open up the gates. And we had around 500,000 people coming into the country very, very quickly. Now, we've worked to bring that number down. It's reduced by about 45%. And what we're saying now is we're going to continue to sort of bring it down a little bit more to ensure that the net overseas migration is basically in line with where we think works for the economy. On the issues of which visas and how it's going to happen, I'll leave it to the Minister tomorrow to go through the details, but I want people to rest assured that we're not going to be demonising people as part of this. What we're going to be doing is looking at the economics and looking at the evidence and making sure that people—
PATRICIA KARVELAS: The economics aren't good in terms of cutting migration, are they?
JOSH BURNS: Well, I think it's always a balance, right? Australia's never had a situation where we have unlimited people coming to this country, and we also need to make sure that we're investing in infrastructure and making sure that the jobs and the economy can handle it. No doubt population growth is contributing to economic growth, and without that we'd be in a really serious position. So, you know, I know the Liberal Party and One Nation have completely different policies, and they would be very destructive in the economy. We're not going to do that. We're going to do this in an orderly way.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Alright, you don't have a policy out. One Nation does. They're about to, but theirs isn't quite out yet either.
DAVE SHARMA: Well, let's say they've had a few missed attempts, but let's see.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: There is an announcement tomorrow. a really specific question though. Are you worried that cutting some of visas too much will crash the economy? Are you worried about that?
DAVE SHARMA: Look, I think we're looking closely at— think we've been quite upfront on this. We think net overseas migration is too high. We want it to the number of housing completions, and that'll be about 170,000, 180,000. But while we haven't announced the details yet, you need to be quite careful about where you make these changes. You know, there's different impacts on the economy and on the budget, whether you're touching students or working holiday visas or the humanitarian intake or skilled migrants or families. Each of them has quite a different macroeconomic impact and a fiscal impact on the budget. That's the detail we're working through now. So, no, we want to make sure the migration program continues to work in Australia's national interests and our economic interests. But I just make the point, if you looked at the national accounts that came out just 2 weeks ago, the economy is growing at the same rate as the population, right, over the last 2 quarters. That means no one is any better off. So whilst the nominal GDP figures might be positive, The pie's not getting any bigger for anyone, and that's why Australians know and feel their living standards are flatlining.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK, and you've— it seems from what's going to be announced, the Opposition's not providing the Government support to go further. Isn't that a mistake?
DAVE SHARMA: Well, we've offered support, and, you know, Angus Taylor, our Opposition Leader, has engaged constructively with Anthony Albanese. I believe they've had a few discussions, but—
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But the Government's going to do it through regulation, not legislation, because you won't support that.
DAVE SHARMA: Well, no, we've offered to cooperate, but obviously, you know, it doesn't mean that we give a rubber stamp to everything the government wants to do. We've said we've got conditions that we want to see met, and if they are— and look, we've shown on aged care and on NDIS and other things we're prepared to work constructively with the government. But, the negotiation has not borne fruit. That's okay. Each side can go their own way.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, in the last 30 seconds, because the show's about to end, you can't really do much, can you, without legislation?
JOSH BURNS: Well, what we're not going to do is run scared of One Nation, and I know the Liberal Party and Angus Taylor has been very focused on One Nation. We are not going to be running for the hills, and I didn't get into politics to worry about what Pauline Hanson is putting forward.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: It does look reactive to One Nation.
JOSH BURNS: I think, Patricia, that we've always, always had reasonable conversations about our migration program, and I say this proudly as the descendant of migrants and as the descendant of a refugee. Our country owes a lot to our migrant communities, and we're not here to demonise them in the way in which the politics is being practised by One Nation. We're here to make sure the economy's working.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Alright, we're out of time. You've been a good and efficient panel. Thank you.
JOSH BURNS: Thanks, PK.
DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much.
[ENDS]