Topics: Coalition’s migration policy, OpenAI inquiry E&OE....................... KIERAN GILBERT: I want to turn our attention back to the issue of migration. It's a big political issue today, and Liberal frontbencher Dave Sharma joins me. Dave, thanks for your time. The argument that this is going to be neutral, or neutral in terms of the budgetary and economic impact, yet at the same time slashing the number coming in on— as part of this migration policy, The challenge for the Liberal Party and the Coalition is to say, how does that stack up? How can you achieve both at the same time?
DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, it's quite easy, Kieran, and our modelling is all there. We've done a lot of work with the PBO to make that clear. But I guess, to put it in simple terms, if you've got someone coming in on a— you know, a skill in short supply, who's coming in under the skilled migration visa, they're paying about 3 times as much tax as someone who's on a— a temporary worker visa, a holiday maker visa, a foreign student visa, for instance. So, that's why there's a difference, if you like, between the budgetary impact of certain types of people in Australia. Now, what we're saying is we're to prioritise the people who have skills in demand, who would normally have qualified for the, you know, permanent migration program, and we're going to reduce the numbers of basically guest worker people in Australia. So, people who are here on temporary visas, people who here on bridging visas— there's almost half a million of those— Mm-hm. Foreign student visas, but are largely here to work, not to learn. You know, we have a situation where almost half of students who come to Australia, 10 years later, almost half of them are still here well after they would have completed their course of study. But they're either changing their course of study or finding other ways to prolong and effectively gaming the system. So we want to restore integrity to our system. We want to restore confidence to our system. And we're doing it in a fiscally responsible way.
KIERAN GILBERT: I spoke to the head of the Master Builders, and already she's raising the concern about some of the obstacles that might be there to get skilled workers in. So, there are industries— I've got Innes Willox coming up from the industry group shortly as well. They will be concerned about some of this red tape where you will require people, even if you've studied in Australia, to go offshore. to apply for a visa to come back, even a sponsored visa? If a construction company says, I want that individual, they're skilled, for a sponsored visa, Jonno Duniam said to me, yes, you've still got to go offshore, apply, and then come back.
DAVE SHARMA: Look, we are going to require people to— I mean, not all criteria, not all visa categories, but many will be required to go offshore before we assess their application. But that's a way of— I mean, we have a situation now, Kieran, where the government basically doesn't control the net overseas migration number. They pick a target. they usually fail to hit it. I mean, you know, the last figure for the net overseas migration program was, or net overseas migration, 292,000 over the past year, far more than the government has promised, far more than was in the budget papers, far more than the government intends. And it's because they've allowed a situation where people are too readily able to game the system. Now, you know, is this going to have an impact in certain areas, well, in educational institutions, yes, it will. In vocational education and training, yes, it will have an impact on the number of students they can accept. But by and large, our intent is to make sure that the people with the skills that Australia needs who are coming to Australia to fulfil a skills shortage or contribute to an industry, that they will still be able to come in. But, you know, we do not have free movement of labour in and out of Australia other than with New Zealand, right? The situation in Australia is if you want to come to Australia, you need to apply for a visa. that's whether you're taking a holiday or whether you're seeking to work. But at the moment, that's not really happening because people are staying on here and prolonging visas, changing visas, going on bridging visas. That's how you lose control of a migration program, and that's what's happened under this Labor government.
KIERAN GILBERT: One Nation saying that it will have net negative— well, negative net overseas migration in its first 3 years. This doesn't go as far as that. But clearly, from what I heard from Matt Canavan and John O'Duniam, and I'm sure from you, you're saying, well, yours actually stacks up because you've done the work with the Parliamentary Budget Office, whereas One Nation hasn't. How— to me, this looks like, if not the most important, one of the key issues that Angus Taylor's got to win this argument with One Nation if you're going to be credible and a chance at the next election.
DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think what makes our policy different from Labor's and from One Nation's is we have a credible plan to actually reduce migration. One Nation's got a hope, but they don't have any modelling. They don't have a plan behind it. They can't tell us what the economic consequences will be. Labor is fiddling around at the edges. I they've said they're to reduce net overseas migration from 292,000 to 225,000, but they haven't put in place the tools and the measures to effectively allow them to do that. We've got a— We've got a figure— 100,000 net overseas migration, at least for the first 2 years of a Coalition government, growing after that. And we've shown the modelling, the tools, the visa categories, and the administrative and other legal changes we will make to deliver that. Now, I think, you know, that's our proposition to Australia, is we can run the country differently. We can ensure that the economy grows more strongly. We can get inflation under control. And we've got a plan to do it, a costed and analysed plan to do it, whereas other parties might have slogans or they might have advertising campaigns, but they don't actually have a plan.
KIERAN GILBERT: Yet, yet Jonno Duniam says that those numbers, that Parliamentary Budget Office modelling, the costings, everything else you're talking about as well, that'll be released later. He says, we'll be transparent, you'll get it out before the next election, but why not just release it today?
DAVE SHARMA: Well, it's, it's partly because, Kieran, what the fiscal and economic implications of our policy will be will depend upon what net overseas migration is at the time an election is called. So, until then, the figures we would be putting out are based on modelling based on the current rate of net overseas migration and settings which the government itself is seeking to change. So, we want to be honest with the Australian public, and it means when we know what the government's policy settings are and what net overseas migration is running at, we will release our own costings and our own modelling, and it will show the impact it will have on the economy through the election and beyond. And that's the normal way major political parties do these things, is you put your policies forward to the Parliamentary Budget Office and they're released with costings before the election. The public can have a look at it, the public can examine the assumptions, commentators can as well, and then people can reach their own conclusions.
KIERAN GILBERT: This—a few other issues before you go. The FlyDubai hijack attempt by that radicalised individual First of all, how worried are you that he was radicalised while on a student visa in Australia?
DAVE SHARMA: Look, we don't know that. It's an important point to say. It seems that he was radicalised, but, again, the investigation is ongoing. It seems that he spent time in Australia, but we don't know what the connection between those 2 events is, necessarily. But what is of concern to me is that someone in a— a pilot in a position of responsibility on a plane, whose behaviour and conduct had raised sufficient red flags security and aviation authorities in some countries was still able to get a job flying a major commercial airliner on a very sensitive and, you know, frankly speaking, a vulnerable or sensitive route between Dubai and Tel Aviv. How was that allowed to happen? What checks were missed and how can we prevent something like that from happening in the future?
KIERAN GILBERT: Indeed, very much so. We've got to be looking at those in-house threats and how to manage that if it ever does, God forbid, happen. And finally, Dave, this OpenAI executive before a parliamentary committee today— I'm encouraged to hear the sort of rhetoric that he's coming out with. Let's see if they deliver it, saying, oh, we want to ensure social licence, we're going to be better for Australia. But given what a behemoth OpenAI is, I'm a bit sceptical. Good to see him show up at the parliamentary hearing, but there's just so many Great opportunities, yes, but still massive risks associated with AI right now, isn't there, Dave?
DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I think we're all right to be sceptical. And I did hear the part of the evidence when he was— Jason Kwan, I think it was— was questioned about the laxity with which the Australian government was informed about that attack on Australian government intellectual property and data holdings by a rogue OpenAI agent. I didn't find that answer particularly satisfactory. I mean, I think the time it took is one thing, but the method in which that was communicated is quite another. Sending an email to the Generic Services Australia box saying, oh hey, by the way, your system's been hacked, get in touch if you'd like some more information. That is not the way you deal with a serious government like Australia. And I don't think that's what I would expect from a company with aspirations to be taken seriously like OpenAI.
KIERAN GILBERT: Dave Sharma, great to see you. Thanks for appearing. Talk to you soon.
DAVE SHARMA: Thanks for having me.
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